RICK VIOLETTE ON LASIX

[Andymays]

Close to 80% bleed.


http://www.drf.com/news/opinion-rick-vi ... -lasix-ban

To start, it is not “estimated” that 75 percent of racehorses bleed. The South African triple-blind study, funded in part by the Grayson-Jockey Club Foundation, reported that 78.9 percent of racehorses tested suffered from exercise-induced pulmonary hemorrhage. This study is widely recognized as the gold standard.

[Vince P]

Close to 80% bleed.


http://www.drf.com/news/opinion-rick-vi ... -lasix-ban

To start, it is not “estimated” that 75 percent of racehorses bleed. The South African triple-blind study, funded in part by the Grayson-Jockey Club Foundation, reported that 78.9 percent of racehorses tested suffered from exercise-induced pulmonary hemorrhage. This study is widely recognized as the gold standard.

I meant bleed enough to warrant Lasix as in previous days when you could/should only use Lasix if there was bleeding over a certain threshold.

If 80% of horses bled profusely then I would cancel horse racing, period.

Vince P

[Andyc]

You're telling me no one has ever mentioned to you all the problems they read about horse racing and drugs? Not buying it Andy, sorry.

For the record no one is saying they should eliminate Lasix entirely.

From what I understand, < 5% of hoses bleed. However at least 98% of them use Lasix. The numbers don't add up. There's a reason trainers use Lasix and it's not solely because their horses are bleeders.

Btw, I appreciate the article you posted - very informative. However, for every Pro-Lasix article circulated, there is an intelligently written Con-Lasix article, so one viewpoint - one way or another - doesn't convince me. I've read several well thought articles on this issue and the consensus is 50-50.

Vince P

No one has ever told me they are quitting betting the horses because of the drug issue. Isn't that why people are worried about perception? Because it will result in actions detrimental to the business. As I stated before there will always be a perception that people are cheating. The perception will always be part of gambling now and forever. So the question becomes what is best for the horses.

Based on the article I posted your understanding of the percentage of horses that bleed is not only wrong it woefully wrong. Please post a con-lasix article that presents a good rational for not using the drug at all.

[Fredo]

He made some valid points but I couldn't help but (not) notice how he conveniently avoided he perception issue.
Vince P

So called "Leaders" of the Industry are supposed to educate the public. The truth is that Horse Racing is twice as clean as a sport like golf and about 100 times cleaner than football. This is especially true over the last few years. Several years ago there may have been widespread abuse (milkshaking etc.) but not now. One of the big things now are cortisone joint injections. They do them all over the world but have recently cracked down on the number of injections per month.


http://www.scmp.com/sport/racing/articl ... new-policy

Excerpt:

David Ferraris, trainer of Longines Hong Kong Cup contender Sweet Orange, says he is frustrated by Hong Kong Jockey Club regulations on cortisone joint injections. Sweet Orange was withdrawn from the race following assessment by the Hong Kong Jockey Club that the horse had a soft tissue injury in a joint, where Ferraris says he is not permitted to inject therapeutic cortisone with sufficient frequency.

"Flexibility must be allowed for horses with chronic degenerative changes," Ferraris said. "It's only fair when their workload increases, so should the treatment. These Group horses only race a few times a year and it's not like I am requesting treatment every month - only when they are being prepared for Group One races," said Ferraris.

Ferraris believes the horse came up lame due to the rigors of switching his training from turf to an all-weather surface.

HR is twice as clean as golf ?LMAO.You must be partying with Cheech and Chong. Ya I've seen alot of golfers losing on purpose or drinking snake venom.Wait I almost forgot the time Mickelson jumped in front of a golfer during his putt and cut him off.As usual the golf stewards said there will be no change in the score.Andy step away from the bong.

[Trackmomma]

This is a sticky issue. Yes there is a perception that drugs are over used in Racing. Of course, there are other Equine sports that don't get the kind of coverage that we do in which it is even worse, but that isn't the point.
Andy is correct. Easily 80% of horses bleed while racing or training. If they really want to study the impact of bleeding and lasix in the BC, I suggest they scope every horse that runs. ALL OF THEM. I would be willing to bet Vince's all expense paid trip to Tahoe they would find that many of the winners and horses that otherwise ran well, also bled. It is just the nature of the beast. No one will ever ask the winner's connections if the horse bled and they wouldn't tell you if you did.
My observation of the use of lasix is that it can help the "light" bleeders but not the heavy chronic ones. It isn't truly "performance enhancing" because a heavy bleeder will do so no matter what and the horses that bleed in small amounts are not bleeding enough to affect performance in the first place. To me, it comes down to whether or not you are hurting the horses by giving or not giving lasix. I tend to be of the opinion that since it doesn't really stop EIPH, it shouldn't be used. But, either way, this isn't the type of drug that harms the horse through adverse side affects or by masking unsoundness. Have I used it? Yes, on horses that have run an uncharacteristically poor race and have shown blood when scoped. Has it helped? In some cases, and not in others. If the horse continued to bleed or the severity increased, they were retired. That's pretty much all you can do and allowing lasix in two year old races or not allowing it won't change that.

[Andyc]

HR is twice as clean as golf ?LMAO.You must be partying with Cheech and Chong. Ya I've seen alot of golfers losing on purpose or drinking snake venom.Wait I almost forgot the time Mickelson jumped in front of a golfer during his putt and cut him off.As usual the golf stewards said there will be no change in the score.Andy step away from the bong.

Vince is absolutely correct about golf. Weekly I have found my golfing opponents resorting to beer to steady their putting strokes and sometimes Advil to mask the pains of old age. Where will it all end?

Personally I have considered the bong to help my short game but I have seen that with others it has resulted in a much slower pace of play plus it costs them lots more money with the cart girl for munchies.

[Andyc]

This is a sticky issue. Yes there is a perception that drugs are over used in Racing. Of course, there are other Equine sports that don't get the kind of coverage that we do in which it is even worse, but that isn't the point.
Andy is correct. Easily 80% of horses bleed while racing or training. If they really want to study the impact of bleeding and lasix in the BC, I suggest they scope every horse that runs. ALL OF THEM. I would be willing to bet Vince's all expense paid trip to Tahoe they would find that many of the winners and horses that otherwise ran well, also bled. It is just the nature of the beast. No one will ever ask the winner's connections if the horse bled and they wouldn't tell you if you did.
My observation of the use of lasix is that it can help the "light" bleeders but not the heavy chronic ones. It isn't truly "performance enhancing" because a heavy bleeder will do so no matter what and the horses that bleed in small amounts are not bleeding enough to affect performance in the first place. To me, it comes down to whether or not you are hurting the horses by giving or not giving lasix. I tend to be of the opinion that since it doesn't really stop EIPH, it shouldn't be used. But, either way, this isn't the type of drug that harms the horse through adverse side affects or by masking unsoundness. Have I used it? Yes, on horses that have run an uncharacteristically poor race and have shown blood when scoped. Has it helped? In some cases, and not in others. If the horse continued to bleed or the severity increased, they were retired. That's pretty much all you can do and allowing lasix in two year old races or not allowing it won't change that.

To be clear, I have no position on what should be done with lasix or any other drug. I have neither the education nor the experience to make such judgments. My comments were more targeted towards the perception of racing. I think it is far more important to do the right thing for the horses than to do something that is only intended to polish up a tarnished image.

[Trackmomma]

To be clear, I have no position on what should be done with lasix or any other drug. I have neither the education nor the experience to make such judgments. My comments were more targeted towards the perception of racing. I think it is far more important to do the right thing for the horses than to do something that is only intended to polish up a tarnished image.

I completely agree with you. Racing has a major problem in the area of the public's' perception of drug use in the sport. Lasix has become a target because nearly all horses run on it. The horsemen claim they need it and the militant animal rights people can scream in the public's face that if they need a drug to run we shouldn't "abuse" them by running them. In reaction to that the BC and others say "let's get rid of Lasix." This is, indeed, a bid to polish up the image and it is a really half-a**ed one. The fact that it has caused so much debate has actually done more harm than good.

[Vince P]

Based on the article I posted your understanding of the percentage of horses that bleed is not only wrong it woefully wrong.

WHOA!

Stop right there.

There were about 48 two year-olds that ran without Lasix in the Breeders' Cup races.

I believe 2 or 3 of them bled. Someone correct me on this.

That's much closer to my 5% than to your 80%.

I'm taking about horses that bleed to the extent that they require Lasix which is the whole issue v using Lasix or not using Lasix. 80% bleeders? That's akin to saying that 80% of the employees where I work coughed or sneezed at some point during the day, therefore they need medicine.

Nonsense.

Vince P

[Kermit]

If they run a scope up my nose and down into my lungs, I promise they will find blood.