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Zenyatta went to Churchill and scratched due to what the track folks were doing to the track on the Friday before the Derby.
You really want to count the Mother Goose as a "race", 3 horse field, Rachael versus allowance runners.
Zenyatta has dominated the competition for the last, oh what now, 2 years?
Rachael barely beat the Bird in Maryland, again the 3 year old crop wasn't very good. If she was so good why not run in the Belmont and the Travers?
Zenyatta has been dominating the stage long before Rachael showed up. They could have run that race Saturday anywhere in the world and Zenyatta STILL wins.
Maybe the "dirt" trainers will figure out how to make the transition since the Dubai World Cup will now be run on Tapeta with a purse of $10,000,000, guess Jackson, Zito, Asmussen, insert owner/trainer/ DMTC Fan Forum poster here, won't be going since it is on "plastic."
How many horses didn't come back from 4 days of Breeders Cup's at Santa Anita? How many didn't come back the 2 previous Cup's?
Oh and Zenyatta didn't choose the surface or where the Breeders Cup was run but 14 times she beat whoever showed up.
Avatar - Lords Table winning the Bull Rastus Handicap at Los Al, 9/9/05, Russel Hadley up.
VERY funny stuff!!
Rachel may have beaten as many Grade 1 winners, but the majority were really weak Grade 1 winners. The ones Zenyatta beat were of MUCH higher quality and MOST were on top of their form.
Trying to say how they were all off form?
Colonel John, Giralomo, Summer Bird, Einstein, Awesome Gem and Regal Ransom were ALL coming off of their HIGHEST Beyers of the year in the previous race!!
How do you get that they were off form? Very odd. Very untrue.
Twice Over was coming off of his best race of the year too!
So 7 of the 11 foes she faced were in TOP form ... So how you get your spin ... I have NO idea. Just because you want to deem your opinion as fact, doesn't make it so.
Get out your Daily Racing Form ... Look at the numbers and the come back and tell me these horses weren't at peak form ... At least 7 or the 11 were.
Funny stuff though ... figuratively made me chuckle the way you spun something that wasn't there. Good try!
Get your racing form ... Look at the last 5 races of ALL of the horses in this race and you will see that pretty much all of them except possibly Rip and Mine That Bird were in their best stretches of the year ...
And Zenyatta vanquished them ... Hardly breaking a sweat.
Send Rachel against this field anywhere and she doesn't hit the board ... TOO tough of a group for her.
Rachel is a great 3 YEAR OLD! ... Give her another year or two and she may beat the likes of these ... Run her against this group anywhere TODAY and she gets trounced ...
In case you hadn't noticed either ... She can barely hang on at a mile and an eighth ... You think she's gonna pull a mile and a quarter against this group???
C'mon ... Get real ...
She runs in THAT race against THAT group TODAY at the age of 3 and at THAT distance ... She ends up right next to her buddy Mine That Bird ... Just like she did in The Preakness ... Which would be in 8th or 9th ...
You seem to forget that she' a 3 year old and the Grade 1 winner's she beat with the exception of Summer Bird(Before he'd turned the corner) ... Were a MUCH weaker group than the likes in this race ...
Her age ... The calibur of the competition and the distance are HUGE ... Yet you discount them ... Very odd indeed ...
In all honesty ... In that race do you think she beats Zenyatta, Gio Ponti, Twice Over, Summer Bird, Colonel John or Richard's Kid with where they finished ... I sure don't see that happening ... Do you? Honestly?
On synthetics, dirt or wherever?
The 1 time Zenyatta ran on dirt ... She ROMPED ... It was her easiest win ... We'll never know ... But I'm willing to beat she's even notably better on dirt.
Last edited by Political Web on Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Zen would have beaten Rachel Saturday. Like it or not. See, I can choose a winner ON PAPER as well as you can. Doesn't mean much, does it.
You call Zen one-dimensional but applaud RA for not running on synthetics or turf. ???
A beat is a beat, but RA was a diminishing stride away from losing the Preakness against MTB who ran a Gr I mile and a quarter race (Ky Derby) TWO WEEKS before.
Trainers are becoming adapt at picking off tired horses in these Triple Crown races. A fact of life, not necessarily one The fans like.
Zen beat all who entered the Classic, and did it easily. Maybe you (nor I) don't know more about these horses than their trainers.
The Europeans kicked some butt in the BC, and they had not been running at Santa Anita all year. Your own argument makes it logical to go from turf to Pro Ride.
Horses know when they win a race, but can't read so they don't know who won HOY, so who cares? Besides, if any horse not named Sea The Stars wins HOY, it should be changed to "HOY in the American Colonies".
I know that RA played legally within the rules as defined, but for players who consider Weight a handicapping factor, it's very easy to suggest that RA won a couple of races because of the weight allowance given to her, whereas not even in the Classic for Zen could anybody say that weight made a difference in the final outcome of the race.
I'm the best ************************when there's an advantage in the weights assigned to me*******************************
And remember...Things work out best when you make the best of the way things work out.
Are you serious? I'm a big Zenyatta fan and will always admire her as a tremendous racehorse but there's absolutely no way you can say unequivocally that Rachel Alexandra would have been trounced by that field on dirt. No way at all. I think your Zenyatta goggles are making for a bit more hyperbole.
Mine That Bird came in 9th ... What? Like at least 10 to 15 lengths back? She ALMOST lost to Mine That Bird at a shorter distance ... She loses to Mine That Bird if there's 1 more stride left in that race.
At least 7 horses in this race are NOTABLY better than Mine That Bird ... And she barely hung on to beat him ...
These are also TOP OF THE LINE older males unlike the likes of which she's ever faced ...
Mine That Bird finished EXACTLY where I would have projected in this race ...
Rachel barely beat him ... and seems to show she can't handle a mile and a quarter ... She can barely get a mile and an eighth ...
She runs with THIS field at THIS distance ... She finishes right next to Mine That Bird ...
Does the added distance hurt Rachel?
Was the quality of the horses in that race notably better than any horse Rachel has EVER beaten?
She beat Summer Bird BEFORE he started hitting 100 Beyers ... He was up to back to back 110's coming into the Classic.
Does the AGE difference play a bigger factor in the Classic now when you are TRULY talking the BEST of the BEST ... ?
These were not JUST Grade 1 winners Zenyatta was facing ... These were the BEST of the Grade 1 winners!
Consider these factors ... Consider the distance ... where the horse she basically tied(Mine Tht Bird) finished ... Consider the calibur of horses ALL in 1 race that Rachel has NEVER faced.
Yeah... I'm VERY serious and if you discount all of the factors I've listed ... Then you're definitely the one with the blinders on.
I am an unabashed Cali homer ... NO doubt ... I will ALWAYS cheer for the Cali horse in ANY race ... NOT Cali bred ... Cali BASED.
That being said ... I DON'T think that all Cali horses are the best ... I just root for them ...
In this case Zenyatta is the best horse this country has to offer ... I'd CHEER for her regardless ... But if I didn't think she was better than Rachel ... I wouldn't tout her as such ...
Consider the MAJOR factors I have listed ... distance ... quality and ALL in 1 race ... You don't just have to beat ONE of these top Calibur horses ... But at least 8 of them all at the same time BETTER than any horse Rachel has ever faced.
She doesn't hit the board in THIS race and ALMOST certainly finishes in the back of the pack ... If you've watched her races ... You saw how she almost lost to Macho Again and Mine That Bird because she could barely make a mile and an eighth ...
One more stride she loses to BOTH of them.
NTamm ... Mine That Bird finised in 9th in this race ... Where do you think Macho Again finishes???
Rachel almost lost to BOTH of them at a shorter distance ... She certainly loses to both of them at a mile and a quarter ...
And you think she wins this race? When she barely hung on against Mine That Bid and Macho Again?
Last edited by Political Web on Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
**In case you hadn't noticed either ... She can barely hang on at a mile and an eighth**
you are assuming she,R.A., would set the same fractions going the longer distance???
I'm going to preface what I'm about to say by saying I'm not even sure why I'm going to belabor these points with you but your comparison of their respective winning margins against Mine That Bird is so ridiculous. First of all, Mine That Bird is a proven hater of the Pro-Ride, so the fact that he was even within 15 lengths of Zenyatta at the finish is a miracle. Her victory over him (which happened to be her third start on a third different surface in the span of 41 days) came after she dueled the rest of the field into defeat on a new track from the far outside post. Uh, those are pretty all pretty significant factors.
What you, and everyone else who is trying to rate Zenyatta ahead of Rachel Alexandra, are doing with the Mine That Bird and Macho Again stuff is ridiculous. You're taking her two narrowest victories and completely dis-regarding dynamics, which often, if not always, are the biggest indicator in outcomes of thoroughbred racing. You saying that Rachel narrowly beat Mine That Bird and that that's some black mark against her would be like me saying that Zenyatta barely beat Anabaa's Creation and that's a black mark against her. It's ignorant because neither were defined by those respective performances and both did things that were way out of the norm in achieving those victories.
I also think you're overrating the quality of the Classic field by a distance if you're considering them the best of the best. Perhaps the best of the best in terms of turf horses and synthetic specialists, but certainly not the best dirt horses in the country running on their preferred surface. But, don't get me wrong, that takes nothing away from Zenyatta's performance, it was truly amazing.
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