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RICK VIOLETTE ON LASIX

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Re: RICK VIOLETTE ON LASIX

Postby Andyc » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:26 pm

Vince P wrote:
There were about 48 two year-olds that ran without Lasix in the Breeders' Cup races.

I believe 2 or 3 of them bled. Someone correct me on this.

That's much closer to my 5% than to your 80%.

I'm taking about horses that bleed to the extent that they require Lasix which is the whole issue v using Lasix or not using Lasix. 80% bleeders? That's akin to saying that 80% of the employees where I work coughed or sneezed at some point during the day, therefore they need medicine.

Nonsense.

Vince P



I didn't mention an 80% figure so don't attribute that to me.

I believe that all of the 2 year old in the BC were not scoped so to say only 2 or 3 bled would be conjecture. 2 or 3 might have visibly bled.

As for needing medicine, that should be up to the trainer and the owner. If lasix isn't performance enhancing for non-bleeders why should there be a concern if any horse was administered the drug?
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Re: RICK VIOLETTE ON LASIX

Postby Theiman » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:32 pm

Trackmomma wrote:This is a sticky issue. Yes there is a perception that drugs are over used in Racing. Of course, there are other Equine sports that don't get the kind of coverage that we do in which it is even worse, but that isn't the point.
Andy is correct. Easily 80% of horses bleed while racing or training. If they really want to study the impact of bleeding and lasix in the BC, I suggest they scope every horse that runs. ALL OF THEM. I would be willing to bet Vince's all expense paid trip to Tahoe they would find that many of the winners and horses that otherwise ran well, also bled. It is just the nature of the beast. No one will ever ask the winner's connections if the horse bled and they wouldn't tell you if you did.
My observation of the use of lasix is that it can help the "light" bleeders but not the heavy chronic ones.


So this Lasix thing must be a North America problem only. If not, and 80% of the world wide racing horses bleed on racing or training, how does the rest of the non North America racing world survive?
The perception of drugs and racing is more than a public view, its a horsemen view too, the foreign horseman of the world often scoff at the pursuasive medication here in NA. The foreign countries, where racing survives without lasix, with large fields in many countries(Hong Kong, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Dubai, etc) have no problems.
So if Lasix is a North America thing what happened, when, and why?

I am no expert either, but tend to question the motives in this situation. For years while I grew up in NYC there was no lasix allowed while lasix was used in other jurisidictions. There was a big cry after the BC came into existance that the out of state horses werent going to come to NY when the BC was held there because they couldnt use lasix. So NYS Racing Board relented and allowed it.
How can a breed suddenly bleed, bad enough to need medication. 80% may bleed yet over 95% use lasix? I guess if someone told me 95% of all human athletes need to take a shot of a Primatine Inhaler before a sporting event I shouldnt be surprised.
FRIERI EQUALS HIGH BLOOD PRESSURE
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Re: RICK VIOLETTE ON LASIX

Postby Andymays » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:35 pm

Vince P wrote:WHOA!

Stop right there.

There were about 48 two year-olds that ran without Lasix in the Breeders' Cup races.

I believe 2 or 3 of them bled. Someone correct me on this.

That's much closer to my 5% than to your 80%.

I'm taking about horses that bleed to the extent that they require Lasix which is the whole issue v using Lasix or not using Lasix. 80% bleeders? That's akin to saying that 80% of the employees where I work coughed or sneezed at some point during the day, therefore they need medicine.

Nonsense.

Vince P


The Breeders' Cup didn't scope any of them. Since Breeders Cup day there have been 5 Trainers who have mentioned that their 2-year-olds bled. Spring in the Air (finished 5th and bled badly) and Capo Bastone (finished third and bled on a scale of 3-5) are the most well known of the bleeders.
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Re: RICK VIOLETTE ON LASIX

Postby Kermit » Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:23 pm

European horses...
don't live at the track in a small stall
many gallop thru the countryside on 'gallops' made for that purpose
most of the above is away from polluted-air cities
many more of them race on grass
most of them run races at a lot slower time than in speed-crazy America
the ones that are really bleeders come to America

It's not a secret, trainers here admit with a smile that they put their young horse on lasix 'just in case'.
Then they get to charge the owners with scoping, vitamin shots etc.

Why do we call them trainers? They are conditioners who's main responsibility is seeing that the horse doesn't starve to death and fighting with the tracks for stalls.
America must have the highest "goofs per capita" rating of any nation outside Antarctica.
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Re: RICK VIOLETTE ON LASIX

Postby Reallyquiet » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:03 am

The notion that lasix doesnt aid in performance is bs.At the very least,lasix is a diuretic.When administered,a horse could lose anywhere from 30-80 lbs of water weight.This gives any horse,but especially mares in heat,who tend to hold more water,a HUGE temporary edge....
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Re: RICK VIOLETTE ON LASIX

Postby Andymays » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:36 am

Reallyquiet wrote:The notion that lasix doesnt aid in performance is bs.At the very least,lasix is a diuretic.When administered,a horse could lose anywhere from 30-80 lbs of water weight.This gives any horse,but especially mares in heat,who tend to hold more water,a HUGE temporary edge....


the overwhelming majority of horses lose about 20lbs when administered lasix.

What is exercise-induced pulmonary hemorrhage?

A horse affected by EIPH--a bleeder--suffers from ruptured blood vessels in the lungs during the
stress of training or competing. This condition affects not just
Thoroughbred racehorses, but all equine athletes, including polo ponies,
3-day event horses, barrel racers and steeplechasers.1 The severity of the
condition is determined by the amount of blood in the horse’s trachea,
and graded on a scale of 0 to 4. If a horse is graded as a 4, there is blood
covering the entire trachea and performance is severely affected; if the
horse is off the charts and in crisis, there is blood draining from one or
both nostrils (epistaxis). In those cases, the condition can be critical.
Some 60% of sudden deaths in racing have been attributed to pulmonary
hemorrhage.2 Studies have proven that the vast majority of race horses
will suffer EIPH at some point during their careers, and that even a grade
2 can affect a horse’s performance by as many as six lengths.

First documented in the early 1800s, EIPH had long been suspected to
have a negative impact on a racehorse’s ability to perform at its peak level. But, until the early
1970s, the only symptom of EIPH beyond the subpar performance wasepistaxis. That changed
with the introduction of the fiberoptic endoscope 40 years ago, which, for the first time, allowed
a veterinarian to examine the horse’s upper respiratory system, and determine the origin and
severity of the bleeding. Not only did this ground-breaking advance in diagnostics prove that the
blood originated from the lungs, but also demonstrated that EIPH was prevalent even when
epistaxis was not evident.

Dr. Ken Hinchcliff, the recognized leader in EIPH research, was lead author on studies conducted
in Australia and South Africa, which proved definitively that EIPH affects the majority of
Thoroughbred racehorses. The results from his Australian study, released in 2005, determined
that 55% of horses suffered some level of EIPH, and was the first to clearly demonstrate the
connection between EIPH and poor performance.3 Subsequent studies have found that the
prevalence of EIPH is even higher. If you scope a horse after three successive strenuous workouts,
nearly 100% will be diagnosed with EIPH by the third scope.

Dr. Hinchcliff then set out to determine if the most common treatment for EIPH, the
administration of Lasix, was, in fact, effective. The results of the study, conducted under racing
conditions in South Africa, were published in the
Journal of the American Veterinary Medical
ASSOCIATION in July of 2009.2 Not only was the
study able to quantify the impact on performance
with regard to the severity of the EIPH, but
proved that Lasix was highly effective in
alleviating the condition. A small percentage of
the 152 horses involved in the study evidenced the highest degree of bleeding without Lasix--
grades 3 and 4--but not a single horse evidenced a grade higher than 2 after the administration of
Lasix. Twice as many horshorses were completely unaffected by EIPH when treated with Lasix as
when racing without it.

The scientific evidence is irrefutable. Horses bleed. Lasix works. But, despite this evidence,
many in our industry are staunchly opposed to the use of Lasix. What are the common objections
to using an effective medication to treat a condition that is at minimum uncomfortable and
distressing for the horse, and, at maximum, fatal?

Separating Fact from Conjecture...
1) Racing in the U.S. survived without Lasix for hundreds of years. Why do we need it now?
• Lasix wasn’t even approved for veterinary use until 1967.5 Just a few years later came the
introduction of the fiberoptic endoscope, an equine medical advancement that finally allowed
the definitive diagnosis of EIPH. Anecdotal evidence that Lasix had the potential to treat EIPH led
to clinical trials in the 1970s. States began permitting its therapeutic raceday use that decade.
• There have been many, many advances in medical science, in technology, in the sport of horse
racing, in everyday life, that were not available 50 or 100 or 200 years ago.
• penicillin • women no longer smoke or drink during pregnancy
• the internet • football players wear helmets and pads
• cell phones • wearing seatbelts is mandatory by law
• the starting gate • young children must ride in car seats
• nuclear scintigraphy • daily low-dose aspirin is a common regimen to prevent
etc, etc... heart attacks and strokes

“Because we got along without them,” is no argument for not taking advantage of these
advancements now.
2) They race without Lasix in Europe, in Hong Kong, in Japan. Why do we need it in the U.S.?
• Outside of the United States, the majority of racing jurisdictions still use archaic medical
science when it comes to an official diagnosis of EIPH.6 If a horse does not show evidence of
epistaxis (bleeding from one or both nostrils), they are not considered bleeders. With the modern
technology available to aid in diagnosis, this is the medical equivalent of refusing to use an X-ray
machine to diagnose fractures. It is irresponsible to wait for a horse to be in crisis to make a
diagnosis.

• Outside the United States, the majority of racing jurisdictions fail to officially acknowledge the
prevalence of EIPH, despite the incontrovertible
evidence that it affects the majority of horses.
BUT, trainers in Europe and Australia use Lasix
during training on a regular basis. The trainers
acknowledge its effectiveness in treating EIPH--
the ONLY motivation for using Lasix during
morning workouts is the alleviation of EIPH.

European trainers have been known to use adjunct bleeder medications in competition. Nick
Henderson had a positive for Tranexamic Acid in
2009 with a steeplechase horse owned by The
Queen. Henderson’s response to the positive? "I
was very surprised," he told The Guardian. "I didn't
think we had administered anything terribly
illegal...” He told a panel of the Royal College of
Veterinary Services convened to hear the case
that “plenty of trainers” were using the banned
medication, and concluded, “The horse was not
doped. She was given a drug for her own benefit.”
3) Human athletes are not allowed to compete on medication. Why would we race horses on
medication?
• This is a complete misconception. Pro
athletes are banned from competing on certain
medications--steroids, human growth hormone
and illegal narcotics top the list of specifically
banned substances. But Quarterback Tony
Romo took pain-killing injections to his ribs
DURING four straight games at the beginning of
the 2011 season.8 When pro tennis player Novak
Djokovic beat Rafael Nadal, in the U.S. Open
final in September, he was popping pain pills
DURING THE MATCH.

Olympic athletes, long perceived as being completely drug free, have a lengthy list of approved
medications from the World Anti-Doping
Agency that can be used on the day of
competition, including: anesthetics such
as novocaine, xylocaine and even
adrenaline; antidepressants;
antihistamines; asthma drugs; caffeine; muscle relaxers; pain relievers and anti-inflammatories;
sedatives; and ulcer medications. Even cortisone injections are permitted on the day of
competition. Diuretics can be used if a Therapeutic Use Exemption has been issued to the
athlete.10 (A list of WADA’s approved drugs is attached).

For the whole PDF click on the link.

http://www.nytha.com/pdf/the_lasix_question.pdf
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Re: RICK VIOLETTE ON LASIX

Postby Andyc » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:57 am

Reallyquiet wrote:The notion that lasix doesnt aid in performance is bs.At the very least,lasix is a diuretic.When administered,a horse could lose anywhere from 30-80 lbs of water weight.This gives any horse,but especially mares in heat,who tend to hold more water,a HUGE temporary edge....


So to agree with your statement we would have to believe that a horse a) can lose 30-80 pounds of water and b) that a horse will perform much better when having lower than normal water levels. I have never heard that or read that so I would be interested to see some data or studies reflecting your viewpoints.
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Re: RICK VIOLETTE ON LASIX

Postby Vince P » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:27 am

Andyc wrote:
Reallyquiet wrote:The notion that lasix doesnt aid in performance is bs.At the very least,lasix is a diuretic.When administered,a horse could lose anywhere from 30-80 lbs of water weight.This gives any horse,but especially mares in heat,who tend to hold more water,a HUGE temporary edge....


So to agree with your statement we would have to believe that a horse a) can lose 30-80 pounds of water and b) that a horse will perform much better when having lower than normal water levels. I have never heard that or read that so I would be interested to see some data or studies reflecting your viewpoints.



Andy,

Serious question. Do you really think most trainers run all their horses on Lasix because they're all bleeders?

If so, please let me sell you some extra oil rich land I accumulated in Alaska this past year.

Vince P
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Re: RICK VIOLETTE ON LASIX

Postby Reallyquiet » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:08 am

So to agree with your statement we would have to believe that a horse a) can lose 30-80 pounds of water and b) that a horse will perform much better when having lower than normal water levels. I have never heard that or read that so I would be interested to see some data or studies reflecting your viewpoints.[/quote]


Andy,Ive owned rougly 30-40 claimers over the last 10 years.All the trainers Ive used said this about water weight.Ive seen mares look very bloated(while in heat),and when they received lasix,they lost excess water,and looked positively shredded and striated muscle-wise.AG,we can debate how much it helps;I think it does somewhat.
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Re: RICK VIOLETTE ON LASIX

Postby Andyc » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:40 pm

Vince P wrote:Andy, Serious question. Do you really think most trainers run all their horses on Lasix because they're all bleeders?

If so, please let me sell you some extra oil rich land I accumulated in Alaska this past year.

Vince P


See article posted by myself and AndyMays above. You would be negligent not to use lasix on your horses. Apparently you think it is better for a horse to have EIPH.
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