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Re: Rachel

Postby Risen Star » Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:16 pm

Thinkinproblem wrote:[


HOY does not change the fact that she does not, and apparently will not, have a BC trophy. If RA's race record does not contain such, then it would be a glaring omission in her list of accomplishments. To me, a BC is a must have, in order to be considered in the pantheon of greats

If you don't think the Breeders Cup is very important, then that is your call.



The majority of "pantheon of greats" raced prior to the existence of the Breeders' Cup.

If the Breeders' Cup is "a must have, in order to be considered in the pantheon of greats", I guess that means that horses who raced prior to 1984 aren't great. Secretariat wasn't great. Forego wasn't great. Ruffian wasn't great. Kelso wasn't great, Native Dancer wasn't great. Citation wasn't great. And so on. And I guess John Henry who was voted HOY in 1984, didn't deserve it and also can't be among the greats because he skipped the BC. And Man o'War's career was more than six decades prior to the Breeders' Cup, so we'll have to eliminate him from the "great" club as well.

I don't mean to be a wise acre here with these comments, but my point is that one race, in and of itself, whether it's the Breeders' Cup Classic, other BC race, or Kentucky Derby, or whatever, doesn't make a great horse or the best horse. An ample body of work over time determines this.
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Re: Rachel

Postby AlphaGaijin » Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:26 pm

I'm fortunate to have witnessed history in the making and will never forget my experience at Saratoga this weekend.

You all can go on & on about weak males, giving weight, JJ, Z's camp, glorified claimers & all that jazz. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if this thread surpasses the Titan P6 one in length so I'll keep it to the point with these six words about Saturday's Woodward Stakes:

RACHEL ALEXANDRA BROKE THE TRACK RECORD.

Carry on with your mindless drivel if you must....
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Re: Rachel

Postby PrivateSmiles » Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:42 pm

Thinkinproblem wrote:
Rachel the "footnote" will win HOY of the year by a landslide. Why dont you save this post and we'll look at it after the Eclipse awards ?

HOY does not change the fact that she does not, and apparently will not, have a BC trophy. If RA's race record does not contain such, then it would be a glaring omission in her list of accomplishments. To me, a BC is a must have, in order to be considered in the pantheon of greats. If you don't think the Breeders Cup is very important, then that is your call.


The BC, when you come right down to it, is a marketing ploy. And a BC win does not a career make. I doubt very much that her not having one will be a "glaring omission". Lots of great horses don't have one. Does that make them less great? Shall we remove them from "the pantheon of greats"? How were "greats" determined before there was such a thing as the BC?

What Rachel has done to date has far surpassed a single BC win. It's certainly a lot more difficult to string together as many graded wins as she has garnered over the course of just one year than to win a single BC race. We can all name horses who won a BC race who would never even remotely be considered "great".

It's far more important to have substance than it is to just have flash.
"And Afleet Alex just ran right by Giacomo like he was standing still!"

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Re: Rachel

Postby Thinkinproblem » Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:33 pm

AlphaGaijin wrote:I'm fortunate to have witnessed history in the making and will never forget my experience at Saratoga this weekend.

You all can go on & on about weak males, giving weight, JJ, Z's camp, glorified claimers & all that jazz. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if this thread surpasses the Titan P6 one in length so I'll keep it to the point with these six words about Saturday's Woodward Stakes:

RACHEL ALEXANDRA BROKE THE TRACK RECORD.

Carry on with your mindless drivel if you must....


I refuse to drink J Jackson's Kool Aid! I just won't do it!!
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Re: Rachel

Postby Thinkinproblem » Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:36 pm

PrivateSmiles wrote:[
The BC, when you come right down to it, is a marketing ploy. And a BC win does not a career make. I doubt very much that her not having one will be a "glaring omission". Lots of great horses don't have one. Does that make them less great? Shall we remove them from "the pantheon of greats"? How were "greats" determined before there was such a thing as the BC?

What Rachel has done to date has far surpassed a single BC win. It's certainly a lot more difficult to string together as many graded wins as she has garnered over the course of just one year than to win a single BC race. We can all name horses who won a BC race who would never even remotely be considered "great".



It's far more important to have substance than it is to just have flash.


Well, i don't know what you will be doing on Nov 6th and 7th, but I know where I will be.
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Re: Rachel

Postby Tuxtin » Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:59 pm

AlphaGaijin wrote:I'm fortunate to have witnessed history in the making and will never forget my experience at Saratoga this weekend.

You all can go on & on about weak males, giving weight, JJ, Z's camp, glorified claimers & all that jazz. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if this thread surpasses the Titan P6 one in length so I'll keep it to the point with these six words about Saturday's Woodward Stakes:

RACHEL ALEXANDRA BROKE THE TRACK RECORD.

Carry on with your mindless drivel if you must....


huh??? what track record? she ran it in 1:48.29

anyhow, it would be nice to see her in person at the BC but her absence will have little impact on me while I'm there. i don't spend time thinking about "what if...." i merely enjoy the horses entered in a given race.
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Re: Rachel..

Postby PeteMo » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:24 pm

Here you go Risen Star and the others who cant see clearly on this matter.


http://www.johnpiesen.com/



EIGHT POUNDS
PLUS Closing Day At Del Mar promises to be a rewarding one for Piesen followers.

In 2008, the big racing story was Eight Belles.

In 2009, it's eight pounds!

At least it should be.

You would think that maybe just one turf writer -- from Steve Crist and Andy Beyer to the upstate kids -- would have mentioned that Rachel Alexandra was getting eight pounds (126-118) from Macho Again (and everything else) in the Woodward Stakes last Saturday at Saratoga.

Why does this writer have to be the only one to bring up this rather important handicapping point -- namely that eight pounds generally represent about 1 1/2 lengths, and that the difference between Rachel and Macho Again was a head.

"It is what it is," said Terry Finley, the principal owner of Macho Again, in this space a week before the Woodward when asked about the Woodward weights.

In the wake of the race, clearly he can say: "it was what it was."

Now, I'm not saying that Macho Again would have won under level weights. But tell me when was the last time a Horse of the Year -- a title Rachel clinched Saturday -- was getting such a weight break in his or her decisive race.

No, you can't tell me when was the last time...because it had never happened.

Hey, I'm just as enthusiastic as the next fellow about Rachel. And I appreciate the attraction and superstar she has become. I almost got buried in the avalanche of camera-waving Rachelites trying to get up close and personal in the paddock.

And I'm talking last Thursday afternoon when she was schooled between races. Even the owner's wife was snapping away from the first row.

But don't tell me -- like so many of my media colleagues are saying -- that this was the greatest race in history. We are talking here about a 1-5 shot wiring the field WHILE GETTING EIGHT POUNDS FROM THE RUNNER-UP!

You want to see a great race?

Look back no further than that grass race allowance two weeks back when six horses finished noses apart. Now that, my friends, was a great race.

And what's this about the Graveyard of Favorites?

They ran six stakes over the last three days of the Saratoga meeting. The favorite won five of them. And in the one (the Forego) the favorite didn't win, the chalk finished second to the second choice.

And why can't owner Jackson for once be totally honest when asked about the plans for Rachel?

The media asked Jackson in the winner's circle if Rachel will race again this year.

His reply:

"I don't know. We'll have to see how she comes out of this race?"

Baloney.

There is no way they are going to Rachel again this year. Eight for eight is more than enough.

I'm not knocking Jackson for ducking the Breeders' Cup. He learned his lesson last year when Curlin got beat in the Classic. He then felt he had to bribe the Eclipse voters with bottles of his best wine to get their votes, a strategy that worked.

Let's face it. If Rachel ran in the Classic this year, how confident would Jackson be going against Zenyatta and Sea of Stars at a mile and a quarter?

Macho Again is a nice horse, but he's not in Zenyatta's league -- and notably nor is a mile and a furlong a mile and a quarter.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Rachel has run her last race.

If she stops now, she goes down with Ruffian as the greatest 3-year-old fillies in history.

Jackson already has hinted that he wants no part of the mile and a quarter Dubai World Cup. Maybe he would change his mind if they hiked the purse from $6 million to $10 million.

In case you missed it the other day, Jackson said they should spike the Beldame purse to $5 million for a Rachel-Zenyatta showdown.

And talking about great fillies...how 'bout Linda Rice!

All the lovely Linda did at Saratoga was become the first woman in history to win a training title at a major track. As we know, she edged Todd Pletcher by one (20-19) although the Toddster ran 50 more horses.

My lasting image of Saratoga will be Linda entering the winner's circle, carrying a bunch of newspapers under her arm, sweeping her long blonde hair to the side, and hugging her owners.

Too bad, fellas. She has a steady boyfriend...a trainer who is lucky to win one race a month.

Linda needed a little luck to win the Spa title, and she got it on Sunday when the Toddster got beat half a nose in an allowance race by Kieran McLauglin, his good buddy since their days as assistants to Wayne Lukas.

And, on Monday, Toddster got beat on a 2-5 shot that was picked on top by l8 of 18 public handicappers.

Back to Rachel. If I'm wrong, and they do bring her back next year at 4 rather than breed her to Curlin, her first goal no doubt would be the Apple Blossom Handicap at Oaklawn Park.

Let's see now. Since Rachel won the Woodward under 118 pounds in her 3-year-old finale, Oaklawn racing secretary Pat Pope may be obliged to add one pound to 119.

He is little off stating 8 pounds is 1 1/2 lengths..At 1 1/8 its closer to 5 lengths.
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Re: Rachel

Postby AlphaGaijin » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:47 pm

Tuxtin wrote:huh??? what track record? she ran it in 1:48.29

anyhow, it would be nice to see her in person at the BC but her absence will have little impact on me while I'm there. i don't spend time thinking about "what if...." i merely enjoy the horses entered in a given race.


My bad. She ran it 4/5 of a second faster than last year. I kept hearing, "She broke the record by 4/5 of a second!!!!" so my mistake for not researching before opening my mouth.

I'm looking forward to seeing her run in next year's BC.
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Re: Rachel

Postby Risen Star » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:51 pm

PeteMo,

In 1948, Citation, who would be the Horse of the Year, didn't receive an eight pound break, but did get seven pounds from 4-year-old Phalanx and 5-year-old Beauchef in the Jockey Club Gold Cup. I don't know if I'd call that a "decisive" race, as you put it, but it was obviously one of the biggest in racing, and Citation would continue to race that year, although not in another race as prestigious. Rachel is a female, so let's not begrudge her the extra pound. Citation also received larger weight concessions from his elders, however it was in February when the great colt was still biologically two. So I hope you won't begrudge him that.

I thought the whole idea of weight concessions was to take away an advantage. When Rachel ran in the Preakness, if I remember right, she received a five-pound break in the weights because of her gender. If a three-year-old male had run in the Woodward, that horse would have likely received a weight break as well, in order to eliminate any advantage. Rachel, a female, went against older males, which stands to reason that if she already received five pounds against males of her own age group, it's logical that she'd receive more against older males? That's only fair. How many three-year-old fillies even take on older males?

And despite what people think, these older males were good runners, stakes winners, graded stakes winners at some point in their career.

I personally never said this was the greatest race of all time; however, with the campaign this filly has had this year, with the number of starts she made, what other horse compares with her, weight or no weight?

I don't understand why we can't applaud her instead of devising ways of trying to put holes in what she's done.

Anyone who is making a big deal about the weight concession, must also do the thing with Sea The Stars, who received 10-11 pounds from older males in the Coral Eclipse.

I stand by what I said. Rachel Alexandra is the best Thoroughbred racehorse in America and among the best in the world, IMO.
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Re: Rachel

Postby DegenerationX » Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:40 pm

A true champion runs in the BC unless they are retired because of injury. Rachel might by HOY but she will have an asterisk next to her accomplishment. |lie|
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